Episode 102: The Future of Fatty Acid Guidelines: Amy Symington’s Work on DRI Development

Welcome to the Plant-Based Canada Podcast! In today’s episode, we’re joined by (soon to be Dr.) Amy Symington.

Amy Symington is a Toronto-based nutrition professor, researcher, and plant-focused chef with over 25 years in the food industry and more than 12 years of teaching experience. She holds a Master of Science in Applied Human Nutrition and is currently pursuing a PhD in Nutritional Sciences at the University of Toronto. Amy leads culinary nutrition programming at Gilda’s Toronto, a not-for profit cancer support organization, and works with Humane World for Animals Canada’s Forward Food team, training executive chefs in hospitals and universities on plant-forward menu planning aligned with Canada’s Food Guide. She also supports the Toronto Vegetarian Food Bank as a chef, consultant, and instructor. An award-winning author, Amy wrote The Long Table Cookbook: Plant-based Recipes for Optimal Health and regularly contributes recipes and nutrition writing to national and international publications. A passionate advocate for evidence-based, sustainable eating, she is also the proud mother of two healthy vegan children. As part of her PhD she is currently working on a clinical trial investigating omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid docosahexaenoic acid (also known as DHA). DHA is considered an important omega-3 fatty acid that research has shown to help support brain, eye, and heart health, reduce inflammation, and be important for fetal and infant development.

Amy Symington’s Socials:
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Bonus Promotion

Check out University of Guelph's online Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate. Each 4-week course will guide you through essential plant-based topics including nutritional benefits, disease prevention, and environmental impacts. You can also customize your learning with unique courses such as Plant-Based Diets for Athletes and Implementing a Plant-Based Diet at Home. As the first university-level plant-based certificate in Canada, you’ll explore current research, learn from leading industry experts, and join a community of like-minded people. Use our exclusive discount code PBC2025 to save 10% on all Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate courses. uoguel.ph/pbn.

Thank you for tuning in! Make sure to subscribe to the Plant-Based Canada Podcast so you get notified when new episodes are published. 

This episode was hosted by Stephanie Nishi RD, PhD.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Plant-Based Canada podcast. Join us as we talk to experts to explore plant-based practices and how our food choices impact our health and the environment. We sit down with doctors, dietitians, athletes, and various fields to break down the evidence behind a whole foods plant-based diet and discuss the practical steps we can take in the effort to shift towards a healthier lifestyle. My name is Stephanie Nishi, and today I'm joined by Amy Symington to discuss the clinical trial she's working on, which is providing new research findings related to fatty acids and dietary recommendations. Amy Symington is a Toronto-based nutrition professor, researcher, and plant-focused chef with over 25 years in the food industry and more than 12 years of teaching experience. She holds a Master of Science in Applied Human Nutrition and is currently pursuing a PhD in nutritional sciences at the University of Toronto. Amy leads culinary nutrition programming at Gillabus Toronto, a not-for-profit cancer support organization, and works with Humane World for Animals Canada's Forward Food Team, training executive chefs in hospitals and universities on plant forward menu planning aligned with Canada's Food Guide. She also supports the Toronto Vegetarian Food Bank as a chef, consultant, and instructor. An award-winning author, Amy wrote the Long Table Cookbook, Plant-Based Recipes for Optimal Health, and regularly contributes recipes and nutrition writing to national and international publications. A passionate advocate for evidence-based sustainable eating, she is also the proud mother of two healthy vegan children. As part of her PhD, she is currently working on a clinical trial investigating omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid delcosohexanoic acid, also known as DHA. DHA is considered an important omega-3 fatty acid that research has shown to help support brain, eye, and heart health, reduce inflammation, as well as have importance in fetal and infant development. Before we get into the discussion, we have something that may be of interest to you from the University of Guelph. Do you want to take your plant-based knowledge to the next level? Stay tuned for a special promo code. The online plant-based nutrition certificate through open learning and educational support at the University of Guelph has everything you need to know about implementing a sustainable plant-based diet. Each course is just four weeks long and will guide you through essential topics including nutritional benefits, disease prevention, and environmental impacts. You can also customize your learning with unique courses such as plant-based diets for athletes and implementing a plant-based diet at home. As the first university-level plant-based certificate in Canada, you'll explore current research, learn from leading industry experts, and join a community of like-minded people. Use our exclusive discount code PBC2025 to save 10% on all plant-based nutrition certificate courses. The discount code is valid until December 31st, 2025. Learn more about the certificate program and find the discount code in the show notes of this episode. Amy, thank you so much for coming back to the Plant-Based Canada podcast. I'm so looking forward to speaking with you again.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, oh my goodness, thank you so much for having me again.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Oh, it's my pleasure. And it was, I was actually looking back. You were a guest on episode 17. And we're now currently in the hundreds of episodes. And when you look I know, can you believe it?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Well, it's to individuals like yourself that helped us continue on. And in that episode, you spoke about your cookbook, the long table cookbook, about plant-based recipes for optimal health and shared insights and tips for how to be plant-based in the kitchen. And now you're doing your PhD. So, what inspired you to pursue your PhD? And more specifically, you're researching on the Cosa hexanoic acid, which is a fatty acid that many may be familiar with by its commonly known term, DHA, and omega-3 fatty acids and a group of individuals following a vegetarian or vegan dietary pattern. And I was wondering what inspired this?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Great question. So why did I do a PhD? What does anyone do with PhD? They're, I mean, curious and answering specific questions scientifically. But to go back personally, I had done a master's in applied human nutrition with a focus on functional foods in Oxford. That was back starting in 2011, so a long time ago. I did that. I'm interested in chronic disease prevention management overall, as you know. But as I mentioned, functional foods is also something I'm interested in, specifically omega-3 fatty acids. And so while doing my master's, I actually ran a clinical trial on vegetarians and vegans and omnivores and DHA derived from fish oil versus DHA derived from algae oil and whether it's biou equivalent, uh, because there wasn't much uh literature available on that topic uh back in the day. And it was kind of when algae oil was this novel source of DHA. Meanwhile, it's as as you may know, it's the original source of DHA, it's where fish uh fish eat the algae and then and then some people eat the fish. Um, and so I did this study. I was very interested in it, all came from one comment from one of my professors was that people cannot be vegan because they they don't obtain DHA. And so I was very curious about this. Okay, well, why is this? What you know, you know, what is happening here? I'm not, I I know a bunch of vegans, they're not walking around brain dead and blind, like the you know, what's happening here? And so I looked further into this, and then my then supervisor agreed to take on this, uh, take on this study. And so we we ran that. And then I ran that, found that um the sources that we used specifically, it was an algae oil that I actually ended up using for my trial this time around, um, as well, Canadian sourced algae oil, versus it was just a British-based fish oil. And we actually found that the algae oil was more bioavailable than the fish oil. And it could have just couldn't, you know, it could have just been the brands um specifically. But the idea is that it's a viable, excellent source of DHA that can be used in lieu of fish oil, which is considered to be the golden standard. So, fast forward a few years, I came back. Well, when I came back for my master's, I wanted to continue doing um academia and research. Uh, and I'd actually reached out to my now supervisor, Dr. Richard Baznet. And at the time it was um kind of a little novel. There wasn't any funding. It wasn't kind of the area of research that they were looking at at that particular time. But we kept in touch. And then in between that time, as you know, I then went on to be a nutrition professor, researcher, and chef at George Brown College. So I worked there for a decade before uh and always kept in touch with Richard, um, sending like DHA papers back and forth um just for fun. And then after my son, my second child, was about a year old, he'd reached back out saying, Hey, are you still interested in getting a PhD? And I said, Yep. And he's like, Great, I have funding, and the rest is history. So here I am. Yeah, now now working on um uh my PhD. And we I just finished a clinical trial in February, at the end of February. So just in the midst of data analysis right now and writing, and I just got back from a conference in Quebec City on fatty acids presenting some of my research.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

It's very exciting to hear about, and we'll dive more into this clinical trial that you conducted. But first, speaking of those years in between your master's to now, I recently saw your poster in the plant-based Toronto Subway ad campaign. So I just wanted to give you a shout out to that because it's been pretty incredible seeing all the things that yourself and the other individuals represented in that that you've accomplished.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's such a cool campaign. If you're not familiar with it, there's uh plant-based posters all over the subways for the month of June and July, just kind of showcasing some really cool, successful plant-based professionals in Toronto and some of the cool things that they're up to. Yeah. And I was included, which was cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

No, well deserved. So you mentioned this clinical trial, and we're talking about DHA. So, why is determining a dietary requirement for DHA particularly important, especially right now, from both a health and environmental standpoint?

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah, I think I think it's important for a variety of different reasons. There is evidence that indicates that it is important. The argument is that it's not essential because we can get it from ALA, the body will make it. So it can be converted from alpha linolenic acid, which is found in hemp seeds, cheese seeds, walnuts, flax seeds, um, you know, green vegetables, that sort of thing. But in the past, it's been um shown in the research for that conversion rate to be at an arguably low rate, so less than 1% is converted from ALA to DHA. But what we're actually finding in our research in the lab yet to be published is um is that that rate is is probably much higher because in previous studies they're just looking at plasma, they're not looking at whole body synthesis, and it may be closer to like levels of nine to ten percent in terms of the conversion rate. And that's kind of what my one of the things that my my trial is looking at. It's not the primary outcome, but um, but it is something that we're looking at. And so, yeah, it's it's I think important to distinguish this DRI or potentially distinguish a DRI for DHA, because right now even experts in the field suggest that we should be consuming anywhere from zero to 500 milligrams of DHA per day. So there's no, you know, there's no number uh that's really official. Um experts, I mean, if you dive further into the research, they suggest anywhere from 250 to 500 milligrams per day of DHA is really kind of the optimal range. Um but yeah, it has been said that zero is you know is is is sufficient in terms of DHA. And so um what companies do, what you know, fish oil companies in particular may do is they there's nothing there in terms of a recommendation, so they can really put um whatever amount they kind of, not whatever amount they want on the bottle, but there's no nothing they're being held to in terms of a number or being held accountable to in terms of a number. And so oftentimes you hear like upwards to two or three grams of DHA per day is recommended for different supplements. And so that's a lot of fish. That's a lot of fish that is being, you know, unsustainably farmed. Um, you know, DHA is an ecologically sensitive nutrient. And so um, you know, if everyone in the world were to um meet these these you know, these suggested requirements uh uh you know on these supplements, like two grams per day, we would it would just not be feasible, especially in terms of sustainability. So it's really important to nail down this number so that um you know people aren't you know over not you know taking too much, more than they necessarily need. If if if any at all, maybe diet is uh is sufficient. And and in in terms of our research, I think it's it's it's very likely that uh you know dietary consumption is probably sufficient. Um so it's really important, especially right now when climate change is is is here, it's now, it's happening. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Thank you for that. And I was wondering, can you walk us through the core design and objectives of your clinical trial that you're conducting? Um that's looking at, and I believe the title is correct me if I'm off, a dose response investigation of decosa hexanoic acid, DHA, and the short form is DRI-DHA. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, for sure. I'd love I would love to. Thank you for asking. Um, so I conducted a parallel six-arm double-blinded uh randomized control trial from March 2024 to February 2025. Um, and so following block randomization, uh, I had 72 healthy vegetarians and vegans. Uh, they were aged 18 to 50. Um, they received uh supplementation for eight weeks with one of six DHA um doses doses, algae oil-based, of course. Um, so we had um doses that were generally consumed, so under 100 milligrams per day, doses that are recommended, that 250 to 500 milligram range, and then doses that have been shown to increase uh EPA. So um, and I'll get back to that in just a moment because that's really important. That's one of the primary outcomes that we're looking for is this increase in EPA. And so we collected blood on six uh different time points between uh day zero and day 57. And uh and we used, I should mention, we used vegetarians and vegans because they tend to have similarly low DHA levels due to their consumption of uh no to low DHA. And this was ideal for our study because unlike omnivores, their baseline intake of DHA is zero or close to, which allows us to know the exact amount that's being consumed. Um, yeah, and then we did some other exploratory, like measurements for exploratory analysis on the first and last day of the trial that, you know, in relation to like cardiovascular disease biomarkers, inflammation, blood clotting, that sort of stuff that we'll investigate later. But yeah, basically it was just we're trying to see this um potential spike in EPA, which is the um uh if we're looking on the metabolic pathway of omega-3 fatty acids, we just to shorten it for us, we have ALLA and ALA is then converted to EPA, and EPA is then converted into DHA with some stops along the way there that I'm kind of skipping. But but uh the idea is that uh in certain studies with high dose supplementation of DHA, we're seeing an increase uh in EPA, just the step before DHA. And um in the past it was um attributed to something called retroconversion, that the you know DHA is retro-converting back to EPA. And what we found in our lab using um a very special special like isotopic analysis uh is that it's actually ALA derived EPA. And that spike in EPA is kind of the body, you know, it's a feedback inhibition, and the body's saying that's enough, and it could potentially be in regards to uh the tissue DHA tissue needs being met. And so that's kind of the whole thesis of our of our study was that at this point in time, the the spike in the spike in EPA is that DHA tissues are potentially being met. And so objectives in terms of objectives, I had a bunch, but I'll just list two of them right now. Um, so the first objective was to determine uh the dose at which DHA increases EPA. So the doses we had, as I mentioned, we had a zero milligrams per day, which was a soybean oil, then we had a hundred milligrams per day, then 200, 400, 800, and a thousand. And so we wanted to run this dose response trial to see a dose response and then to see at what dose and and time uh EPA increases with DHA supplementation. So that was the first objective. And then the second objective was to use this special isotope analysis. It's called compound-specific isotope analysis. I won't get into the nerdy details of it, but essentially we're just tracing, we're using um carbon-13 as a tracer in research. And the idea is that we're we're utilizing um this signature, this delta carbon 13 signature as a biomarker to determine how DHA increases EPA levels. So that's it. And that took, as I said, from March 2024 to February 2025, and it was so much fun. It's so strange, but it was so much fun. It was great, and the recruitment was super easy, which apparently is not normal, which I know is not normal, but I feel like the well, I know that the vegetarian vegan population are quite um motivated. So yeah. And now we're, as I mentioned, just in the the midst of um analyzing data and and writing.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Thank you so much for that. And it's so interesting. Something that stood out to me was the way the samples were analyzed and the methodologies that we're using, that you were using, and I'll get into that in a little bit. But you had mentioned that you didn't find the typical recruitment challenges that many trials do. And I was wondering if you could speak to that um a little bit more. You mentioned that the population that was participating in the study is highly motivated, and I personally saw a number of the postings that you had sent out on social media. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more to that and the eligibility criteria of the participants and why specifically that population was of interest. I know you mentioned the lower DHA levels in the blood circulating for these individuals, um, but were there other things that were kept in mind to help with the recruitment process, or were there any unexpected challenges that arose during that year period or more?

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah, great questions. Um, so I love talking about the recruitment. So, in terms of eligibility, they had to be between 18 and 50. We wanted people to be um pre-menopausal because estrogen affects DHA synthesis. And so that was one of the main reasons for the age. Uh, as I mentioned, vegans, vegetarians tend to consume low to no. Uh, vegetarians on average consume about 20 milligrams of DHA per day. Vegans consume none. Um, and so actually, we ended up only having 10% of our study to be vegetarians. The other 90% were vegans, so it was ideal. Um, so we really knew that they weren't getting any DHA, and the participants couldn't have been taking any sort of omega-3 supplements beforehand uh for at least six months. I only had one participant who had taken um DHA supplements prior to, and then they stopped taking them for six months so that they could participate in the study. But everyone else had never taken um supplements or had had barely taken them in the in the past. And so again, just making sure that that baseline was actually zero because most of the studies that are there now, it's a mixed background. The background diet is a factor that you have to take into consideration because if we're especially trying to establish a DRI, um you need to know them the amount that's required. And it's not the amount on top of their background diet, it's like you want the actual precise amount. Um, so that was the main thing. In terms of other requirements, they you know they had to be healthy. And I know obviously in science, that's such a vague term, but they for us it meant like you know, absent of disease, essentially. Uh they we originally were gonna um exclude contraceptives like um like oral contraceptives and um and IUDs that were hormonal, but we decided to include those because most, especially women during that period of time in their life are are on one of those, one of those two things. Um, and so we went back and said, okay, now we'll we'll include people who are taking contraceptives as well. Originally we didn't, so we'll obviously look at that um or take that into consideration when looking at the data and analyzing it, especially if we're gonna look at um any sort of sex differences, which we're not powered to do, but we'll do a we'll do an exploratory analysis. But yeah, and that's that's basically it. In terms of the actual recruitment, um, I really, as you mentioned, seeing some of the the the recruitment posters uh in the wild, um basically I just looked at people who, you know, groups, Facebook groups, organizations that uh that vegetarians and vegans tend to flock to. So a couple of my favorites, the Toronto Vegetarian, the Toronto Veg Food Bank, uh you know, Veg TO, uh, you know, animal justice. Um, there's so many. There's so many to list, but uh just you know, sending out emails, getting them on board, and then having them do email blasts, um, sharing on social media. We had a really lovely poster done by a colleague of mine, her name is Ling Ling. She was so lovely, donated her time, and made this beautiful poster for us that I feel like really helped. And then kind of jokingly, I always said that people people came, but they they came, but they stayed for my breakfasts that I would make them every visit. So that helped with retention and maybe recruitment because people people came for the food. I definitely made sure that I put a lot of tender love and care in the breakfast. They came six times, 72 participants. So you can imagine how many breakfasts I made. And it wasn't just you know a bag with cream cheese. So um, yeah, but the overall uh recruitment process was actually quite enjoyable, and I know that's not common, so I feel very, very lucky.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

That's great. And along the lines of adherence, um you mentioned your breakfasts. And I was wondering if there is any other interesting or unexpected patterns in participant adherence or potential dropout rates, because that's also something to consider when thinking about clinical trials.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Definitely. So I only had, thank you for asking. I forgot to mention, I only had two dropouts out of 72, which is also pretty great. And in terms of adherence, over 70% of my participants took all of their supplements. And the other, you know, the other percentage um were included. Like it was, it wasn't like it was touch and go. They were, they, they took the majority of their their um supplements. So that wasn't an issue at all. Um, I had set up a very intricate supplement system for everyone where they had like they were given this, these pill boxes that had they were supposed to take them in the AM and the PM, and they had the AM and PM boxes, and I had gave them strict instructions and where to where to place it in their house. And it was this big honk and box, so you couldn't mix miss it. So that in and of itself was kind of a reminder to take their supplements. Um and as a result, we got a really beautiful dose response curve, um, just kind of indicating compliance uh through the study. Um yeah, so it was it was very we I don't I I don't want to say lucked out because I did put a lot of thought and effort into things, but people were people were very keen.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

I think it with clinical trials, there's always so many different factors involved, including the individuals who are conducting the trial, the participants, like all need to kind of come together and work together to make things happen. So kudos to you on that and thinking through all these processes and making it feasible and to the participants who gave up their time.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Oh, I was just exactly I was just agreeing with you exactly. Like, thank you so much, participants, if you're listening. I promise the results are coming soon.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, research, it's very dependent on the participants, especially clinical trials. So huge shout out to anybody who's been a participant in uh nutritional research in particular. So I want to shift gears a little bit because you had mentioned the methods that you use to analyze your samples. And gas chromatography is one of the methods used to analyze the fatty acid composition of the blood samples that were collected over that eight-week period. But you also mentioned compound-specific isotope analysis or CSIA. And to me, this is quite interesting and it sounds advanced. And I was wondering if you could explain what it is and how it helps trace DHA metabolism and how you used it in your study.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Most definitely. So it was a it's the second secondary um outcome for our study. So it wasn't our primary outcome, but it is something we're looking into. Uh, and right now I have preliminary results, so we're still in the midst of um looking at that. It's a wonderful thing. Um, the machine we use is called the RMS, and it's um very sensitive in detecting carbon-13 that's present uh in the samples that we put on. Uh, as a result, though, it tends to break down frequently. So right now it's down. But, anyways, when it is back up and running, we'll finish with my analysis. But essentially, because different plants have varying amounts of carbon-13, um, it's possible to use these uh signatures and tracers as research. So, just to give you an idea of the delta carbon-13 signature ranges, um uh the less negative the value, the more C13 enriched uh something is, and the more negative, the less enriched it is. So the the values um are all negative for different plants. So, for example, C3 plants, which make up about 95% of the majority of plants, including ALA sources like soy, um, their signatures tend to come in at around negative 30. Uh, and C4 plants, uh, including um plants like corn, uh, they tend to come in at around negative 13. And then marine fish, for example, will come in at around negative 20. And so um we can use these values uh to trace the carbon-13 in uh in different samples and and see um whether they change or not. So, for example, for a supplement supplementation trial, say all the participants start at the same carbon-13 level at the very, very beginning, but then for over over eight weeks, they're they're supplemented with different things. So, say they're supplemented with a um, you know, a C3 plant, like an ALA-rich food, and uh C4 plant, so like an like corn or something like that, you're able to tell by the end of the study they're supplemented, their their signature will change, and you're able to um uh distinguish the differences um by the end of the trial just by using that delta, the delta carbon 13 signatures as a tracer. I hope that was clear. It can be kind of complex.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yes, it's such an interesting method, and I know that this may be a little more technical than what we normally get into, but I just thought that that was a technique that I know in the Dr. Bazanet lab has been used. And I think it's so interesting that this is a methodology that can help assess and determine different sources of things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

And for another example, would be so for our study, the supplements that we used uh had a carbon-13 signature of negative 13. And so then we could trace uh in terms of the doses, we could trace the supplement in our participants. So we could also see if they're compliant, um, and uh and also see where the DHA is coming from. Is it coming from an ALA source or is it coming from a DHA source, which is also very cool, and we'll also be able to hopefully um provide a more precise conversion rate from ALA to DHA as a result?

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Along those lines, I know you mentioned that this is still pre-publication and there's still some data analyses to be conducted, but have any early trends or surprising findings emerged so far from the trial that you are able to share with us?

SPEAKER_02 28:35

That's a great question. So just some not my primary outcome, but one of the things that I thought was really cool, and I haven't we haven't uh dove too much into the analysis for this, is just and I think the research is already out there, but this just adds to the literature. Um, the vegans generally have low blood pressure. That was something that was very cool. Like everyone, and it even between like anecdotally between vegetarians and vegans, there was a significant like in in if you want to see significance, obviously that's a specific term, but there was a difference. There was definitely a difference between the vegetarians and vegans, even with the blood pressure, which was really cool. So I'm hoping someone will will look into that for me a little bit more, as it's not one of my main outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

But I'm looking forward to reading the paper when it's published and reading about all the different findings that you come across. I was wondering Yeah, it'll go. Um, I was wondering you mentioned that you were gonna look at sex differences as well, and that even though you're not currently powered for that, did you is that something that you had started to analyze and have you noticed any trends in that regard between males and females, or is this something that may still be to come?

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yes, it's still to come. We haven't we haven't looked at that yet. It's part of your exploratory analysis. So right now we're just working on the primary and secondary, uh, and then we'll get to the the exploratory at some point. But other labs, um uh I would say our sister lab, uh, Dr. Adam Methrals really really looks into sex differences and he has um done a few studies in rodent models and then uh is currently looking, is moving more into um, or I guess he's always done clinical clinical trials. But yeah, he's uh doing it in both. So um more information is to come there. But um yeah, that there is but there is a difference in terms of um DHA synthesis in particular between men and women. But for my trial, we haven't looked at it yet.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

So something else to look forward to as well. And on that note, you mentioned the secondary, secondary and exploratory analyses. Are there any in particular insights that you're most excited about investigating or looking into? Um, you had mentioned this blood pressure impact that you've seen across the population, but I know that you're also looking at other um potential outcomes like cholesterol, heart health, and age maybe, or things like that. I was wondering if there's anything that you're most excited about.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Yeah, I'm most excited about the conversion rate from ALA to ELA to DHA. That's the main thing I'm I'm I'm very excited to look at into, look more into. So once our IRMS is back up and running, I'm looking forward to finishing that data and and maybe getting a more precise calculation. That's pretty cool. Um, if if anyone's been, you know, if you've been plant-based for you know the last 10 to 20 years, you know it's a question. It's like, oh, you can't be vegan or vegetarian because DHA. You absolutely have to have DHA. Uh ALA won't cut it. You know, we've had all these studies saying, you know, it's only in a less than 1% conversion rate. Um, and now we're seeing with some of the research that we're looking at, it's not actually, it's it's it's it's more than that. And may even be sufficient, um, is likely sufficient. Um, again, I'm biased though, because of the the the research that we're looking into. But um yeah, so that's the main thing that I'm most excited about is that maybe you know, a couple tablespoons here or there of hemp seeds and chia seeds might be might be sufficient. Uh, so that's the main thing I'm I'm I'm interested in looking at. The the other things would be really, really cool, just neat things to to delve more into. So the blood pressure I mentioned, um, you know, the CVD biomarkers, uh, I'm not expecting to see too much of a change or too much of a benefit. There it's uh it's a healthy population, uh, and the doses are are low. Like the highest dose we have is is one gram. Um there was a study done by Bernstein that was um they they'd supplemented 1.6 grams of uh of algae oil per day uh and didn't see too much in terms of in terms of benefits. So we I don't anticipate to see too much there, but it will be interesting to see and interesting to add to the growing body of literature. Yeah, I think that's it. The ALA is probably the the most exciting for me. Um, but of course, it's it's all exciting. It's all exciting.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

It's always exciting, especially when you get to see the findings and see what actually emerges from all the work that you put into for the trial for sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Okay, honey.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

I want to move on to the environmental and ethical potential dimensions associated with this. But first, is there anything else from the trial specifically that we haven't touched on that you would have liked to have talked about?

SPEAKER_02 33:27

No, I think you covered it. You've got some good questions. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

No, thanks for sharing all that information with us and the work that you've been doing there. And you had mentioned earlier um that DHA is ecologically sensitive. And how do your findings that you have thus far or that the findings that you potential potentially will have contribute to reducing dependency on fish oil and promoting sustainable alternatives? What is your vision there for that?

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Yeah, I think you know, with with the numbers that we're looking at, they are lower than, and this is for healthy population. We're not talking about like therapeutic use of you know, people are um wanting to take it because, you know, of cardiovascular disease, that sort of thing. We're talking just about healthy uh people. So it may be that you know, healthy people who say are exclusively plant-based, um, may just be fine with with consuming the um the ALA and not have to not have to take DHA supplements. And uh, well, as we know, fishing is like the fishing and farming um industry, uh, and this is not me, this is not coming from my mouth. This isn't my opinion. It's uh it's it's currently as we're as we're headed, it's it's it's pretty unsustainable, um, causing, you know, potentially harmful uh repercussions environmentally. Uh and so if we had a lower amount that is say recommended, then that two grams or three grams that we often see from certain companies uh and then and and promoting that, then promoting that um mean less fish would be required. Um, and then also highlighting um algae oil as a viable alternative is I think is also beneficial too for that for that exact reason. Yeah, it's I think it's super important. I think people all researchers should be considering any research you're doing, uh you should be considering the um environmental impacts of your work.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Yep, and the broader implications of what the research or the questions that you're trying to address could potentially have. Um, and along those lines, it sounds like by having this number or evidence-based DHA intake um knowledge, it could potentially, along with a greater body of evidence, influence the supplement industry in the future or global nutritional policy. Is that something that you had in mind as well? Or is that somewhere that you see this going?

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Definitely. Yeah. Yes, thank you. You just phrased it very like beautifully. So yeah, yeah, that I mean that's also definitely something to take into consideration, particularly when we're working with um like functional foods or nutraceuticals, like like I'll make a three side, yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

And thinking about future research and potential broader impacts, um, do you think that these results, again, with other research, potentially influence dietary recommendations for those following a blant plant-based vegetarian or vegan dietary pattern, or even the general public or population? How do you think that looks? Or do you think there's certain areas that we need to investigate further for this?

SPEAKER_02 36:55

That's a great question. I as I mentioned, I think I mean this is just it's just one study, but I I really do feel that it is um uh contributing to a growing body of evidence that indicates, you know, this is the amount that we may potentially need. Uh so yes, so I'm doing a very small, very tiny little part um to help influence those those um recommendations, I think. But yes, definitely I would love to see, I would love to see it help um with dietary recommendations as uh in uh in addition to nailing down that specific uh number for for for DRIs.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

So then what would be next steps after this trial concludes and you've finished analyzing uh the data and the samples that you have? Are there plans to follow up with further research investigations or either from a research perspective or a personal perspective? I'll leave it to you to take it as you like. Where do you see things going next for yourself?

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah, love that. Um so this will take a while in terms of analyzing and writing. So uh so I'll do that first, check that off. Um yeah, in terms of the specific future for this type of research, uh, I'm not entirely sure. Uh always more research is great is a great idea. Replication is always a great idea. So I think that that might be good in the future for this particular um area of studies. Me personally, uh, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do, but I'm gonna, as I said, I'm gonna finish up with this writing for the primary outcome, the secondary outcome, and then my exploratory analysis, which is which, as I mentioned, will take a while. Um, so I'm really just focusing on that on that in the immediate future. Uh as you know, I also, in addition to doing research, uh, I also love teaching. Um, so I may get back into that a little bit more. Um the uh George Barne College, since I've been gone, they've added a food degree program that is so cool. Uh I've gone back and I've um uh guest lectured a few times uh in some like some of their sustainability courses. It's just so cool. It's such a cool program. So I'd love to continue teaching there and potentially in that program specifically. Yeah, and then as you know, I also work for a bunch of not-for-profits, and that that will never end. I I love my work that I do with uh forward food, um, train chefs all across Canada how to get more fruits and vegetables onto their menus, uh just basically mobilizing Canada's food guide and large institutions like hospitals, long-term care facilities, uh, universities. Um, I'll continue to do that, and I'll continue my work with Gildas Club, the not-for-profit cancer organization that I work for as their culinary nutrition program coordinator. Um, we've got some cool partnerships coming up in the future with Elixir, so um Princess Margaret Hospital, uh, doing some culinary focused or nutrition-focused culinary demonstrations. Um, so I'll continue with that work there. And then always, always, always with the Toronto Vegan. Well, hopefully, hopefully we can put food banks out of business, but um but I'll always continue as long as they need me uh with the Toronto uh veg food bank because their uh work is super, super important. And I've done some work um with the wonderful Matt Noble and Kimberly Carroll there. Um uh again, training chefs and and shelters and um doing cooking classes for patrons who utilize their their services. Um so yeah, you won't, you're not, you're not rid of me yet, but I will continue doing research. I do love clinical trials, and obviously I'm very passionate about plant-based nutrition.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Always a lot on the go and a lot of very exciting things. And speaking of Matt Noble, he'll be on another episode of the Plant-Based Canada podcast, speaking about the campaign and a lot of other things that he's up to these days. So stay tuned for that as well. So, given all of this from the clinical trial and all the other things that you've been associated and working on and the initiatives that you contribute to, but specifically thinking back to your PhD experience thus far, what has been the most rewarding or eye-opening part of doing this work?

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, I think finding the right supervisor for you is so important. Oh my goodness. I feel so lucky. Um, yeah, I've just had an amazing experience. And then my, you know, even my advisory committee, it's just like a dream. I'm working with world-renowned clinical nutrition experts. I'm working with world-renowned fatty acid experts. It's just everything I could have hoped for and more. Um, so I'm just really thankful and I've had a wonderful experience. And they're just also great humans, aside from being beyond smart and experts in their field. They're just wonderful, wonderful people to work with. So that's been so wonderful because you don't know when you're getting into these things, and this is a commitment. You're with these people for four years or more, maybe more, depending uh how long it takes you, or if you're gonna do a postdoc. But in terms of eye openers, I just like the administrative work. I did it before and I did it for my trial, but things are a little different in the UK than here. And it's really important to be rigorous. I understand that, um, especially with the research ethics uh processes, but woo! That was a lot. Um, so I really am happy to help anyone who's currently doing that uh to try and um, you know, make it a lot smoother of a process for them because there's a lot of things that I just had to figure out on my own.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

That's very kind of you because yes, there is a lot of behind the scenes work that many individuals don't realize until they're in the thick of it and like, oh my goodness, okay, I have to be thinking about X, Y, Z all at the same time while also handling ABC. So it's a process for sure. So, for students or researchers interested in nutritional science and plant-based dietary patterns or different food sources, what advice would you offer based on your experience?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Oh my goodness. So, again, same same sort of advice. If you're wanting to get into graduate school or do that sort of um research, find a supervisor that you really want to work with. Um, and if you're not yet at the graduate level and maybe you're doing an undergrad volunteer off of your time, follow up. Don't just send an email and then walk away. Follow up. That indicates to them that they're you're really interested, you're very keen. Um, and stay, yeah, stay in touch. Um, so that's my first advice volunteer as much as you possibly can, you know, go for that summer internship. And then if you are interested in graduate school, make sure that you are interested in the topic that you're gonna be uh working on for you know the next four. the eight years um before you commit to to doing it because it is it's a lot of it's a lot of work um and uh yeah don't just do a PhD for the sake of doing a PhD. I think that's that's that's my take-home message right there. Um and then really uh focusing on I mean obviously um academia is is tough it's all encompassing but making sure that you have a good um work-life balance and a good support network especially if you have kids or you know are married and have other jobs it's um it's it can be a lot so trying to take you know whittle out that time for things that you love and enjoy is is super super important.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Very key. Now I'm gonna switch gears a little bit as we come to our final thoughts but going back to our talk on fatty acids if you could correct one common misconception about omega-3 fatty acids that's currently in the general public what would it be if there is anything that you think needs to be addressed especially based on your research and what you've looked into so far um that that vegans and vegetarians you can't think you can't well vegans in particular shouldn't exist it's a you know it's a dangerous diet you should you know um you shouldn't just be eating vegetables and legumes and nuts and seeds and plant-based protein that you absolutely need to be including animal based protein and animal based foods in your diet um I think that is the hugest myth um and I feel like I maybe changed my first supervisor's mind after after the trial after my my first trial um yeah it's it's totally possible to lead a long healthy uh plant-based diet without eating fish um you know it's obviously just like any healthy healthy dietary pattern you need to be focusing on you know things like cannabis food guides of half your plate fruits and veg quarter of your plate whole grains quarter of your plate um proteins most of which should be coming from plants and do focus on I'm obviously an uh an omega three fatty acid advocate so make sure that you are including you know hemp seeds chia seeds flax seeds walnuts green vegetables soy foods into your into your daily diet for for all the reasons why we should be eating omega threes and Amy where may listeners learn more about your work and all the things that you're up to yeah um so I do have a website uh it's Ameliaeats dotca um and that's a lot of there's a lot of recipes and things there um but other sites that are near and dear to my heart if you go to uh guildas club greater toronto uh I think it's gildasteronto.org is the the website um there are some important resources there in terms of the cancer nutrition work that I do uh including some free recipes uh uh uh a community guide to cancer nutrition that talks about what to consume for cancer prevention during treatment and to prevent recurrence and um and then yeah there's just some cool stop animation videos on there requests for recipes so that's another thing too and then um the uh Forward food website is another another good one too there's um uh a recipe packet with a lot of my work including uh all sorts of health promoting foods that include um omega rich foods omega three rich foods uh that you can check out as well uh and then you can also find me on Instagram at AmeliaEats um and that's it yeah hope to hear from you and I'll link all that information in the show notes if anybody is interested in checking those out and lastly Amy what message do you want to leave listeners thinking about after hearing our discussion today um yeah that you know following a plant-based diet is not only healthy uh sustainable kind to animals um but it can be delicious as well and you don't have to be deprived and you can get your omega 3s too Amy thank you so much for chatting with me and being a special guest on this episode it's much appreciated it's always lovely to chat with you thank you so much for having me it's our pleasure this episode was hosted by myself Stephanie Nishi and Clint Stamatovich is our audio engineer. This podcast featured royalty free music from freesam.com a very special thanks to our guest Amy Symington for speaking with us and sharing her insights and of course thank you for listening. If you enjoy our podcast please consider supporting the show. You can do this by clicking on the link at the bottom of the show notes. The Plant Based Canada Podcast is an initiative of the group Plantbased Canada which aims to educate health professionals and the public on the evidence behind plant-based whole food nutrition for individual and planetary health. To learn more about the show visit our website at www.plantbasedcanada.org and stay up to date by following us on Instagram YouTube and Facebook at Plantbased Canada ORG. Until next time