Plant-Based Canada Podcast
Welcome to the Plant-Based Canada Podcast. Join us as we talk with experts to explore the field of nutritional sciences and how our food choices impact our health and the environment. We sit down with Canadian doctors, dieticians, athletes, climate experts and others/more, to break down the evidence behind a Whole Food Plant-Based diet, and discuss the practical steps you can take in your efforts to shift toward a healthier lifestyle. The Plant-Based Canada Podcast is an initiative of the group Plant-Based Canada, which aims to educate the public and health professionals on the evidence-based benefits of plant-based whole food nutrition for individual and planetary health. To learn more about the show, visit our website www.plantbasedcanada.org and stay up to date by following us on Instagram and Facebook @plantbasedcanadaorg, and our Plant-based Canada YouTube channel. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. PBC is not responsible for any errors, omissions, or opinions related to the content stated by the guests interviewed. All information in this podcast is provided "as is", with no guarantee of completeness, accuracy, timeliness or of the conclusions obtained from the use of this information. The podcast should not be considered professional advice. Listeners should seek their own individual healthcare advice as needed.
Plant-Based Canada Podcast
Episode 112: Wings of Survival with Dr. Timm Döbert and Leanna Carriere
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In this episode of the Plant-Based Canada podcast, we talk to an amazing duo who are putting their athletic endurance to the test for a first of its kind project they call Wings of Survival. A 30,000 km, 9-month cycling and packrafting traverse of the Pacific Americas Flyway, emulating the extraordinary journeys of migratory birds, from the remote reaches of Alaska’s High Arctic to the extreme lands of Patagonia.
Timm Döbert has a PhD in Global Change Ecology from University of Western Australia. He’s a lecturer at the University of Alberta. A Royal Canadian Geographical Society fellow. A Scientific Exploration Society fellow. A Global Sustainable Sport ambassador. And an Ironman athlete.
Leanna Carriere is Canada’s first female decathlete. She’s a former international track & field athlete. An Ironman athlete. A personal trainer. A Seven Summits Snacks co-founder. An EcoAthlete champion. A Global Sustainable Sport ambassador. And a mom.
Together, they’re embarking on a project called Wings of Survival in June of 2026.
Resources
Bonus Promotion
Check out University of Guelph's online Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate. Each 4-week course will guide you through essential plant-based topics including nutritional benefits, disease prevention, and environmental impacts. You can also customize your learning with unique courses such as Plant-Based Diets for Athletes and Implementing a Plant-Based Diet at Home. As the first university-level plant-based certificate in Canada, you’ll explore current research, learn from leading industry experts, and join a community of like-minded people. Use our exclusive discount code PBC2026 to save 10% on all Plant-Based Nutrition Certificate courses. uoguel.ph/pbn.
Welcome to the Plant-Based Canada Podcast. Join us as we talk with experts to explore the field of nutritional sciences and how our food choices impact our health and the environment. We sit down with Canadian doctors, dietitians, athletes, climate experts, and more to break down the evidence behind a Whole Foods plant-based diet and discuss the practical steps you can take in your effort to shift toward a healthier lifestyle. Today I chat with an amazing duo who are putting their athletic endurance to the test for a first of its kind project they call Wings of Survival. It's a 30,000 kilometer, nine-month cycling and pack rafting traverse of the Pacific America's flyway, emulating the extraordinary journeys of migratory birds, from the remote reaches of Alaska's high Arctic to the extreme lands of Patagonia. Throughout the expedition, they will document, film, and photograph what they consider to be the world's greatest endurance athletes, migratory birds, and engage with the people stewarding nature. Tim Dobert has a PhD in global change ecology from the University of Western Australia. He's a lecturer at the University of Alberta, a Royal Canadian Geographical Society Fellow, a Scientific Exploration Society Fellow, a Global Sustainable Sport Ambassador, and an Ironman Athlete. Lianna Carrier is Canada's first female DIC athlete. She's a former international track and field athlete, an Ironman athlete, a personal trainer, a 7 Summit Snack co-founder, an eco-athlete champion, a Global Sustainable Sport Ambassador, and a mom. Together they're embarking on their project Wings of Survival this June 2026. Do you want to take your plant-based knowledge to the next level? The online plant-based nutrition certificate through open learning and educational support at the University of Guelph has everything you need to know about implementing a sustainable plant-based diet. Each course is just four weeks long and will guide you through essential topics including nutritional benefits, disease prevention, and environmental impacts. You can also customize your learning with unique courses such as plant-based diets for athletes and implementing a plant-based diet at home. As the first university-level plant-based certificate in Canada, you'll explore current research, learn from leading industry experts, and join a community of like-minded people. Use our exclusive discount code PBC2026 to save 10% on all plant-based nutrition certificate courses. The discount code is valid until December 31st, 2026. Learn more about the certificate program and find the discount code in the description below. And if you enjoy this episode, please consider supporting our show through the link at the bottom of the show notes, or you can donate directly through our website.
SPEAKER_02Great to be here. Thanks for inviting us.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01So you guys are new to the podcast. We always like to get a little bit of biographical information from our guests before we get going. I'd like to hear from both of you. I want to know what nudged you to plant-based eating and what the evidence that you came across was that really convinced you to make that change. Liana, why don't we start with you?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, so probably been vegan for just about two years, vegetarian prior to that, and kind of slowly made a transition. But the really big point was shortly after meeting Tim and him being a conservation scientist, he really hit home that the one thing we can do as an individual is eat more plant-based to provide a to help protect the planet. And I felt very empowered by that and thought that that's a very easy decision to make, um, as well as the animal welfare side of things. I'm I'm highly empathetic, but I feel I had the blinders on for too many years. And so as soon as we started, as soon as I started being vegetarian and then heading into that vegan route, it just was so clear to me that these decisions were just positive for the environment, for myself, and to share with others the story and how great it can be to eat plants and how fun it is to incorporate different meals. I love cooking. Um, my training partner was attracting field athlete, she was vegan, so she always kind of challenged me to come up with different meals and share different restaurants with me that were vegan. So I I always needed that big nudge, and that really came from hearing from Tim and the science side and what you can do as an individual to really create impact. And I just felt very empowered by that, and it felt like a very easy decision after yeah, after meeting and hearing from Tim.
SPEAKER_01Tim, how about you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I say um, I'd say for me it's been it's been more of a road, not so much a kind of trigger moment. So I've um I've definitely experimented quite a bit as a as a young kid with different different diets. And um sort of at some point as a teenager I wouldn't eat red meat, for example. And I've got no idea why. I don't know, I don't know why I made that decision, but that lasted for a couple of years. And and I do remember some occasions where we used to have those tennis camps, and I I grew up in Germany, and we used to have those tennis camps in bars in England, in the UK. And I remember one day we'd be walking on the on the sidewalk, and the traffic was slowed down, some kind of traffic jam. And there was always this poultry transporter, so there were these live chicken, and we'd be walking maybe 100 meters, and then the traffic continues, and that transporter was literally right next to us for a couple of kilometers walking. And I just felt it was so appalling, you know, the smell and and looking at those chicken. And I think like Liana was saying, it's it's extraordinary how the human mind works in terms of in terms of making a decision where you believe something is the right thing or you know something's right, but you don't necessarily take that step. And I know we humans are pretty good at excusing ourselves. So I'm saying this because when I look when I look back, I'd I'd love to say I would have become vegan just in that moment, realizing just the pain you know those animals would feel being so claustrophobic in those cages. But but I didn't, sadly. And then um yeah, moving forward a little bit, as Liana said, I'm a conservation scientist, and I was very, very fortunate to live a couple of years in the tropics doing my master's research, my PhD research. So literally being kind of in a hammock, you know, very, very, very simple washing in a river, watching animals all day. So um wonderful lifestyle, and it was really at the time where I learned more about the environmental impacts, so not so ethics maybe wasn't the primary focus, but it was understanding just um the impacts of animal animal diets, um, agriculture, and as well as being in the tropics, you're living in a rainforest, there's no fridges, you're rather gonna be at least vegetarian because you just can't, you're gonna be sick all the time. And and we're not hunting, right? We're not indigenous peoples living in the rainforest. We're coming from a kind of western lifestyle. So so being being vegan was just the only the only way to be in those forests. And but you know, I I still didn't really make that that full switch. And then I came to Canada in late 2018 for for my postdoc doctoral research. And I don't think I've I don't think I I've actively purchased meat since coming to Canada. So that's about seven years. And I I very much, it was sort of just before COVID, but very much during that time, it was a little bit of perhaps finding finding myself in in in some ways and where I want to be headed, and doing research in different directions. And you know, something that struck me at the time was understanding or realizing that a lot of people who who have illnesses they switch to or encourage to switch to a plant-based diet. And then they'd oftentimes attribute this switch to plant-based diet to becoming healthy or to having this kind of magical shift towards being cured, for example. And I sort of wondered, well, if it's if it's so good for healing, it shouldn't it be so good for proactively making sure we don't even get or we we minimize, we reduce the risk of getting sick in the first place. So it just absolutely made sense. And I'd say so it's as not this trigger moment, but but a journey. And you know, to be fair, I think until maybe 10 years ago, there just wasn't it just wasn't on the radar so much. You know, plant-based and vegan, there's been this incredible, incredible change where now there's all these different products and people talk about it, and it's it's so much more front and center. So I don't know if that's a bit of an excuse, but basically emphasizing it just wasn't mainstream or it just wasn't so much of a thing. So it doesn't mean you can't make this connection yourself. And again, I regret I didn't, like Liana said too, I didn't do it much earlier. But yeah, I think it's these days. I think I'm trying to say these days it's so much easier because people people actually see products on the shelves and people talk about it. So it's it's not a an exotic foreign thing. It's it's right here among us.
SPEAKER_01I see similarities to my own journey in both of your stories. I'm curious uh before we we move on, uh Liana being from Canada, Tim being from Germany, did you did did either of you face any pushback from friends or family when you made these shifts? I know you know North America is very meat-heavy. Germany, I know, I know recently, at least Berlin or some of the bigger cities have been pretty progressive for vegan foods and stuff like that. But I I assume that the rest of, you know, not all parts of the country are like that. Did either of you guys face any pushback from friends and family?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think for me that's uh that's something that kind of always comes up, or people can't believe because I will admit I was very uh pro-meat and veggies through my athletic career in the younger, in the younger and younger days. And I've been a personal trainer for 15 years. So this question is a hot topic. You know, documentaries come out. You see this shift, it's almost, I always say it's like fashion. There's these like tides of, you know, what's what's hot, you know, it's keto, it's Atkins, it's um, you know, but but being vegan is so much more than just a diet, but it's something, you know, I I sit down with my clients and we'll be sitting talking, and you know, we always get asked the protein question or something. And I'm like, I go, I'm I'm actually vegan. And then they look at me and they're like, What? It's just this, you know, I had one client, he said he's like, Well, you don't look vegan, and I kind of looked at him and was like, What does looking vegan mean to you? And it was kind of frustrating that he had this stereo stereotype in his mind that maybe I should look fragile and skinny. And you know, Tim and I are both very healthy, we are great lean mass, we would we do lots of exercise and we we perform well. And you know, you can't you can't argue aside from the animal welfare, but you can't argue with those. Just because I I did you see meat used to be such a big part of my diet. And I mean, there's also been been studies out there that promote uh animal-based protein versus plant protein. So it's been this interesting, this big shift for me from being one way and switching to the other way. But my my mom's really come a long way in the sense that she'll make sure there's always vegan options. My sister completely understands, but what what always gets me is still at the holiday time. Thanksgiving, I don't even want to be part of. I spent it with a vegan friend this year. Um, and then Tim Tim pointed out this year, my my mom found a vegan meal for us, but then she's like, I'll still cook turkey. And the thought, because I think as we reconnect with nature and animals, it just it hurts more to see. I that's how I I find it is and I feel, and that people can still disregard even my families and friends and be like, Well, I'm still gonna have my meat. And I'm like, I just explained to you all the reasons why you shouldn't eat that, and why do you believe that life is worth you know more than yours, or you don't believe that you know, animals suffered so that you can, you know, enjoy your turkey for the holidays. Really bothers me. Um but yeah, so I you know, I think it's a constant conversation that's ongoing daily because I'm in the health and fitness industry, I meet different people every day. I have a chocolate company as well with my sister, and that was a debate coming up with new product, and she wants to use whey but whey-based protein. I was like, well, then I can't promote it or support this. We're using rice protein. Um, so yeah, lots of, I think it's a constant conversation, but I think as long as the conversations are happening, at least we can maybe help create a shift in society a little bit. Like to be positive about that.
SPEAKER_01How about you, Tim?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think one interesting component is as well. So as we've described our our journeys of getting getting to this point, it's almost watching other people in real time, perhaps hopefully being being on this journey, but then wondering why can't it be much faster? Because we're we're showcasing something here, how how well it works and how important it is. And why is it even so difficult to convince or to to encourage people in our sort of inner circle, you know, people who who know we're going on this big expedition and people, people understanding why we're doing this, why we're so invested in conservation and animal welfare. And and still, you know, it still take takes a lot of a lot of effort and a lot of talking to to really drive this transition in other people. So maybe I don't know, maybe it's just the pace because we feel it's so obvious and so clear, but then it's maybe reminding ourselves a little bit. Well, it's for most people it's also been a a journey sort of across across time, right? For most people it doesn't happen instantaneously, but it's maybe vegetarian first, and then later vegan. So it's but maybe it's that maybe being a little bit impatient and not understanding kind of why why not now? It makes so much sense from from so many different angles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it seems glacial sometimes. It seems uh we've talked about this with some people on the show, some of the guests we've we've had, but it does seem that some people they reach like a critical mass, they see different levels of evidence, whether it's ecological or uh health and nutrition, and then it just something snaps and they can make that shift. And the vast majority of people don't seem to be able to, I forgot who said it, but one of you mentioned just kind of pushing a lot of the stuff to the side and choosing to live without acknowledging that. And it does seem a lot of people are like that versus oh well, here's plenty of evidence, so I'm gonna make the change now. It but I understand, you know, it's hard to make those changes when it when it comes to habits and and culture and things like that. But speaking of evidence, you two are the I'm always interested in this in terms of the evidence side of things because there's new studies that come out every day, one points one way, one points the other. And you you guys have different backgrounds. And so I'm curious when when you were evaluating, because I'm sure even if you see one side, you still want to make sure that what you're going to do is going to be healthy, especially if, for instance, uh both of you being athletes, like that, uh you wouldn't uh my thinking is you wouldn't want to lose any of your your gains or your ability to to to train or whatever uh when it comes to making these changes. So when you're looking at new evidence, when you're when you're trying to evaluate, when you were looking at the evidence behind plant-based diets and specifically athletes, because we do have some decent uh studies uh regarding that, uh, as researchers and athletes, how do you how did you guys evaluate it? Did you just think, well, I'll just do it myself and and and see how it goes, uh, since I know how to do this and you're working with clients, so you know uh how to put together a meal plan and all these things and and how to train. I'm curious how that kind of went with you guys. Like if you if you were your own guinea pigs, I suppose. Uh Leana, if you want to start.
SPEAKER_02That's kind of what I loved about it. It was a challenge to create meals that were well balanced with protein, carbohydrates, fats, uh, that had all of our nutrients that we needed on a daily basis, iron as well. And that's kind of what I liked about it because I come up with these meals and they looked just so beautiful, full of full of color, using different greens or nuts, um, using fun protein products that we have here in Canada. And another really big thing that I when I used to say eat more meat was that I didn't like foods that were really processed. But there's some great companies out there that have ingredients on the back that you know and you understand. And that's that's another big thing that I always look for in products. So when I remember when Tim said he was gonna be vegan, it was his 48th birthday, and he's like, today, sorry, I went to make sure we I made a fully vegan meal, found him a nice chocolate cake that was vegan, and just really looked at all the ingredients and I was very mindful of what we were putting in our body, um, that it had just met all the requirements. So I really enjoyed the challenge of that and the the process of coming up with these great meals that really tasted great and didn't impact performance whatsoever. Um when you eat and you feel good and you're feeling well off the right amount of carbs, protein, and fat, you're gonna perform well and there's enough plant-based foods out there. And that was what was really cool about the study we did is that it really showed that using plant-based proteins. And when I say plant-based proteins, I'm not just saying we're scooping in powders every meal. We take a scoop of powder a day, which is what people and what which is what I would say most people in a health and fitness industry kind of do with any kind of protein powder. So we're not overeating that kind of made protein, but we're really eating, you know, we use big mountain foods, is a great company. And the goose are products, and I just really look, I read the labels and I just make sure that we're getting everything in that we need and and yeah, and the science has has shown that we're doing a great job, which is awesome to see and read.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, yeah. Yeah, as you said, I'm I'm a scientist, but I I'm not too analytical when it comes to the food. I I keep my science to the ecology and conservation. I think for me I always I always say even if I even if and it doesn't happen, but even if I lost two percent of my ability to perform, I'd still do it because it's so much it's so much more valuable to me to to have a good conscience, you know, to to do what I believe is the right thing to do. And um so that's that's really important to me. But fortunately, as Liana said, the science that's kind of pro increasingly been is increasing increasingly being done on us as isolates really shows we don't we don't have any performance kind of deficits or uh or losses whatsoever. So that's that's even better. But yeah, for me it's very much the ethics component. I I want to feel good about what I'm what I'm eating, and I only get this with a plant-based diet these days, for sure.
SPEAKER_01So let's get into some of the uh the actual science that you guys have done. So there's two big tracks. You've done well, you've done a couple, but the one that uh that I want to start with is the 30-day cycle you did across Canada. Did go out of your way to to measure yourself in terms of endurance athletes. Go can you walk me through that journey in terms of why you decided to do this, where you cycled, and some of the difficulty that you endured? Liana, if you want to start.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, so we worked with Prado Labs here at the University of Alberta. Um, and they wanted to do a study on plant-based athletes, uh, endurance athletes. So over a long period of time, it's hard sometimes. We were cycling for 30 days and averaged uh 154 kilometers a day, which was pretty impressive. So, really just getting that study of total energy expenditure was really great. They used something um called doubly labeled water, which um if anyone's in the triathlon world, there was just a big study with Christian Bloomfeld out, and he did not not a similar study. They did he did it more short base, I think it was over two weeks, but to really measure the energy expenditure and to see our um calories in and our calories out, and to kind of compare that as uh or sorry, to kind of look at, you know, is are we getting uh enough fuel on a plant based diet to really sustain? Us for these long, long rides. And that's what was really exciting about it. Tim was around 9,000 calories a day required to fuel Tim. And I was around 6,000 calories a day. So that's a lot of food. And when we were camping in on the go. So it's it was we like we did work with a sports dietitian as well to make sure that what she really taught. I did most of the cooking. So what she really taught me is I was really able to see the amount of food that we did need to eat. So that when we were on this 30-day trek across Canada, I kind of had that, you know, we we ate out of measuring cups to make sure we were getting the right amount of protein, fat, and carbohydrates. We were able to keep the protein at, so we we wanted to, and we did 2.3 grams per kilogram of protein daily. That's kind of that that's very high. A lot of people have a hard time getting an amount of protein in on a daily basis. So we managed to do that on the road. And so that was really great information to have as well. It was great. So we started the study. So at the start of the study, we did a resting metabolic rate. Uh, so we were in this kind of, it was like a hotel room. We had to stay there at an almost sleep state for an hour, which was very challenging for me because I kept wanting, I almost fell asleep a bunch of times. And then um, we did our body composition, we did blood work, and then on the go, we were recording what we ate for four days at the start, and then four days towards the end. And then we had this to test our metabolic rate. We had this, what was it? The it was a face mask that would test that similar to the chamber. So the chamber was kind of the gold standard, but this was a device we could take on the go to measure the metabolic rate again at the start and then at the end again. So it was neat to see how our bodies adapted and how our rate or we were burning more calories by the end of it, which is expected because our bodies adapted to cycling as much as we did. But it was hard. We had um, so Tim would take in around 8,000 calories a day, and I took in around 6,000 calories a day. So I was a little more balanced on my end. I mean, getting in over 9,000 calories, there was a bit of, I mean, there's some, there's a bit of a deficit, which is why he had a little bit of weight, weight loss, but it was nothing um substantial. We're both under 2% of change, of any change. There was really no change, which which was phenomenal that we cycled as far as we did, and we were healthy and kept our lean mass on, and our energy levels were we were able to meet those energy demands through plant-based food.
SPEAKER_01Was there uh Tim, was there anything that surprised you about the about the data? Um, it seems like there were no changes. Uh you were able to sustain yourselves like you would otherwise. Uh, but was there anything else when you when you when you dig into the nuts and bolts of this that surprised you or in a good or bad way?
SPEAKER_00No, I might have to pass that on in a in a minute to Liana because she's the the sports expert. I think I just I just went with the meals Liana was preparing. It was a nice excuse because you're on the bicycle. I had a little frame pouch and um I'm literally just eating because I know I'm burning so many calories and I'll be physically active for 10 hours a day. It's a nice excuse to literally just be be snacking and eating. So it's I don't know, I really, really enjoyed that component. I didn't think too much about what is it gonna be at at the end arriving. So we started in Halifax and we finished in Vancouver. It never really crossed my mind what am I gonna look like in Vancouver or what's what's gonna happen to my body. I was just uh just excited about the opportunity to work with scientists because it it's just uh it's really valuable for us as we kind of move on to different projects because we don't just have to kind of cite literature that's out there, but we can literally refer to ourselves and what we've accomplished. So just a lot of excitement, but maybe you've got some additional expectations.
SPEAKER_02I think the the surprise was that there was no change. And when I talked to uh one of the ladies in the lab helping collect all the work, you know, she she kind of looked at it, she's like, Oh, like your body composition's the same, and you know, our resting metabolic rate recover. So we both increased, so I increased about 420 calories more per day, and Tim was 760 calories more per day than our resting metabolic rate when it was initially measured. So, what was interesting is to me is that you know, I finished this ride, we tested our resting metabolic rate. I'm like over 6,000 calories, I can eat whatever I want. And then within two days, it returned to like 3,500 or whatever. So we we bounced back to normal very quickly. So we adjusted our bodies adjusted very quick, but we also bounced back really quick, which is a little bit uh contribute just to our being seasoned athletes and doing these things. But as Tim said, just having a paper that supports plant-based diets to fuel an event like this is it's just so great to have and have the confidence to be like, yeah, like we we know it because we've read it, but to actually have gone through it and be like, we actually had a scientific study done and these were positive results. One result that wasn't in the paper was that both of our iron increased. I have very low iron, um, but that's not because of my diet. Just gonna throw that out there. Um, my whole family struggles with it, but my iron increased by about 20, which is huge because it takes a long time for your iron to increase. And I think yours increased a little bit as well. I just found that interesting on a on a side note. Part of it's because we're on a bike, so we're not getting that same impact on our body. But I mean, iron plays such a huge role in athletic performance, and the fact that it increased while we were cycling, you know, eight plus hours a day was was great because that's something that I guess there's less worry. It was a big worry going into the study. The professors actually had to sign a sheet of paper because my iron was really low and tried to get transfusion, couldn't get it. So I had to sign something saying that I was okay with taking a risk. And so the fact that it increased was I I found that really surprising.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that really showcases the adaptability, I guess, that uh it's uh first of all, when you mentioned the the number of calories that you that you started consuming over what you were at the base level and then how quickly it it zipped back after the fact. But then also that you you both adapted and you started utilizing more iron. I think that's really, really interesting. I I want to ask, because I know people listening will love this kind of stuff. Uh, and and Leanne, I'm sure you you you know this. Um, but athletes, anybody on a plant-based diet doing endurance or some type of extreme sport or something, everybody always wants to know what they ate exactly. Uh you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner type thing. I'm curious what you guys was there anything out of the ordinary that you were preparing, or was it just, you know, typical plant-based foods through the day?
SPEAKER_02Well, I try to cook in one pot because we were chatting. I didn't want multiple pots. But um, so one thing like when it comes to like being mindful of the iron, because I knew I had low iron. So cream of wheat is an excellent source of iron. So cream of wheat was our staple in the morning, added with protein powder, nuts. I'd add a scoop of peanut butter. So I'd also add extra fat. So fat's great because it's a slow releasing energy over a long period of time. So, you know, you have substantial carbohydrates and fat with the protein, you're gonna get this energy over a long period of time versus eating, say, a bowl of cereal. So I really made sure that breakfast had lots, had had nuts, protein, uh, the cream of wheat. And then similar to the dinner, I always make sure I pick a pasta that's higher in iron. And then what I would do is add, I don't know if Tim knows this, but I would add extra like tablespoons of olive oil just to get because fat's also really high in calories, right? And it was hard. Like we only got around 8,000 calories. So Tim was in a bit of a deficit sometimes. Like adding fat is an easy way to help the energy release over a longer period of time to sustain us. And then it also um is a way to get those calories in. Normally people don't want those calories, but if they're trying to weight loss, but for us, just getting as much as we can in was super important.
SPEAKER_01Uh both on the on the journey, on the track, and then and more broadly speaking, have you guys noticed any changes in terms of your recovery, your stamina, sleep quality, anything like that uh when you switched over to the to the plant-based diet, especially during these long journeys that you do, Tim, if you want to start?
SPEAKER_00Oh, interesting question. Because we're having this, we're having a lifestyle, and we'll probably talk about the expedition a bit later, but we're having this lifestyle where we're constantly changing changing where we are, sort of our location, our the the dynamics. We we don't have the greatest routine because because of what's ahead of us. So it's um it's it's almost very difficult to to me to kind of clearly conclude it's a certain trend has maybe developed based on based on diet, because yeah, one day we're here in Canada, we just got back from Mexico where Lyanna did an Iron Man, and then I was in Europe before meeting some partners, and it's it's these constant changes and time zones. And so I don't know, hard to hard to say. I'm I'm just very happy that that we're so healthy and and can perform so well. I can't yeah, I'd be lying if I said I can really pinpoint recoveries improved or so. Hard to I'd I'd love to, but I can't really say that. But again, it's it's partly because we don't have this nine to five routine and always in the same place. It's we're kind of all over the place, so it's a little bit tricky. What do you think?
SPEAKER_02I think for myself, I compare where I used to when I was at a high level in athletics and I was eating more meat and veggies kind of diet versus now, where I still get a lot of protein in, but it's more well balanced with carbohydrates and fats. I would say I'm surprised um by two things. One being my body composition hasn't changed much since being an elite athlete to where it is as an Iron Man athlete, which I think is is really great because I think a lot of people worry that you lose your muscle mass and your body composition will maybe become lower, or you're eating foods that just break down into simple sugars and and stores fat, but now but it but it's kind of the reverse. I mean, I give it we we do endurance events, so we do need those simple carbohydrates um readily available. You need to build our glycogen storage. So for myself, switching over from what I was eating, not only my body composition stayed the same, but all of a sudden I've had you know more energy to be able to do an Iron Man than to go out, you know, for for a run. I mean, part of that's training. I was a speed power athlete before, and now I do endurance sport, but um just to have that energy through the variety of food we were getting in, and then we don't get sick, knock on wood often. Um you know, we really we didn't get sick on the ride across Canada, which I think that was my biggest concern that we'd see elevated heart rates, that we'd start to feel really worn down and maybe getting sick. So, really, when you're fueling your body with a variety of food, nutrition, good protein, fats, and carbohydrates, it really you know advocates for a healthy lifestyle. And selfishly, I mean, too, I feel I feel better eating plant-based. Like it's again just that one thing I can do towards the planet.
SPEAKER_01So I want to talk about the uh the new project that you have, the new trek that you have coming up, Wings with Survival. The trailer that people can check out right now, and we'll link to in the show notes, is really inspiring. And you guys are filming the whole thing as you do this. Talk to me about what it is, what inspired it, and I guess the impact that you're hoping it brings. Tim, if you want to start.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so Wings of Survival is really a trilogy of expeditions, and it's inspired by migratory birds. And um, the idea that we're having is we're going to traverse three different flyways, and flyways are those kind of pathways, corridors that birds use for migration. So, um, as an example, there's one that kind of goes from Alaska to Patagonia, so literally crossing the entire Americas. And the motivation behind this is for me being a conservation scientist and having been in academia for so for so long. So, my my main job is writing scientific papers. So, not so much anymore these days, but as a student, master's PhD, I'd spend a lot of time in the field collecting data, take it back to my office, start kind of cleaning the data, analyzing the data, writing a paper, being happy about publication after a long, long time because science is very slow. And then you start all over again. But there's never been really this incentive to take the science that we do to the next level, which is have application. So that's that's a huge limitation. And as I've been progressing through my studies, I've increasingly just felt I'm not being genuine to my own expectations, with it, which is I started being a conservation scientist because I really want to create a change. I really care. But being genuine, I realized I'm not doing this, I'm just writing papers, but not really changing anything. So that's kind of the starting, starting point, the background. So the motivation for for those expeditions and wings of survival as a bigger project is we want to really give people a different perspective into the natural world. So what we're doing is we follow those flyways alongside migratory birds. And they're obviously flying, and we are going to be on bicycles. So we're basically exposing ourselves to the very same challenges of kind of the fundamentals that every species cares about. Where do we sleep? What do we eat? Do we have clean water? Do we have a safe place to rest? So we're going to expose ourselves to the very same obstacles, challenges as the birds as the birds, and we're giving people this glimpse into nature because if we're looking at migratory birds, they're arguably the most phenomenal athletes on the planet. And I don't know if we'll talk about this more, but what they can do basically dwarfs anything that a human being is ever capable of. But it's so hard to convey this because it's so abstract. It's so hard to convey to people what it means for a bird that's maybe that maybe weighs 500 grams to fly from Alaska to Patagonia. It's mind-boggling, but it's very hard to convey. So we feel it takes this human element to really showcase and to really showcase to people how ingenious nature is, how how wonderful nature is, and the motivation is let's explore who we are as humans in this bigger web of life. Right. So I think I think where we are at the moment and have been for a long time is we're we're kind of dominating the planet, right? We're we're sort of looking at ourselves as humans, we're the pinnacle of evolution, we make the decisions, everything else is sort of under our control. But in order to address all these challenges we face, like climate change and biodiversity loss and pollution, we really need to revisit who we are. And that means shift from dominating the planet to becoming stewards and realizing yes, we've got the biggest brains and we've got the power, but let's let's use this ability to look after the planet. So that's that's essentially what we're trying trying to do. We want to inspire, we want to motivate people to become to become stewards, to take action. And and migratory birds are just a fascinating hook in a way. It's it's not just about the birds, it's about nature as a nature as by by large, but but birds are yeah, birds are the greatest athletes. So let's let's utilize this very beautiful opportunity to build bridges between the humans and nature to to really nudge people into making conscious changes. And I think this came out a little bit when we spoke about the motivations for being plant-based. It's oftentimes a build-up of different triggers, right? It's not necessarily just one trigger and there's this 180-degree transformative change, but it's oftentimes a buildup towards suddenly realizing I shouldn't make that change. You know, it's it's sort of incremental oftentimes. So we want so we want to use storytelling for people to really come to their own conclusions by allowing them to be part of this this wonderful expedition and yeah, using science, using education to um to create content that allows people to understand how the health of humans is inseparably tied to the health of the planet.
SPEAKER_01It's very smart to look at it from the story storytelling, the narrative perspective. I think a lot of people really latch onto that and and identify with that. So I think that's really intelligent to do it that way. Liana, can you tell me more about the actual trek that you guys are taking, the different challenges, difficulties that you're gonna face on on there? Because these birds can fly, but you guys will be on the ground solely. So you're gonna be on your bikes, you'll have to traverse water, things like that. I'm curious about some of these obstacles that you face.
SPEAKER_02It's a huge project crossing 15 different countries that alone at the border crossings is gonna be a challenge. The logistics, we're trying to get a support vehicle on board that's so we can, you know, bring classrooms virtually connect with everyone, uh, really share the story. Physically, I mean, kind of similar. That's why we did the ride across Canada. It was really kind of to test our mental strength, our physical abilities, our health to see kind of what would what would happen after 30 days. So that was so great to get the results back in a very positive way because Tim and I are gonna be, you know, doing this for around nine months. Hopefully, we we have to be able to get to Patagonia before the birds start flying back. So we still have to be fairly quick on our bikes um with some added community engagements, but and it's not a flat road. So there's lots of climbing. I really don't want it to be all gravel, but there'll be gravel road. We had a hard gravel ride this summer, so um, lots of gravel, I'm sure. We have the Darning gap we have to cross. So that logistically is another hard point to cross because we Tim and I want to be unmotorized, so we are equipped with a couple of pack rafts. So with the water, we'll be hopping in our rafts and rafting certain portions. So I get for so rafting from Panama to Colombia is is the goal for that crossing at this point. And um I think just being, I'm very curious to know the neurological fatigue that's gonna set in at some points. There are points like there's breaking points. I mean, we did great on the 30 days, but you know, when you're when you're into those months and we're not talking days anymore, there is gonna be that that neurological fatigue, which will make, you know, possibly make might make us a little more sensitive, or you get kind of kletzy. I'm not sure if you've been in that position. Being fatigued neurologically is kind of one of those, it can be funny for a day, but then it could also be dangerous as you move forward. Um, like one once we did a huge run and I was so fatigued, I walked into the shower with my socks on. But like, so you can kind of laugh about those things, but it's like when those things start to put you in a dangerous scenario, you know, just staying up on two wheels. When Tim and I were crossing Canada, a surprise thing was that we were both very tired. Like we felt we could sleep on our bike. And I kind of thought to myself, there's so much going on when you're on a bike, but you're so tired. Like you could fall asleep on your bike. A couple of times we just would stop and you know have some sugar. Or part of that I realized as it went on, it was just balancing my caffeine intake. Tim doesn't really do caffeine, but so balancing the caffeine to intake for me was was crucial. So we've learned a lot through what we've done. There's gonna be lots of surprises as we go. And I think it's just Tim and I are very adaptable and willing to make what needs to happen happen in the moment to continue forward. So I I'm Excited.
SPEAKER_01That's a really good point about the the the fatigue that you can suffer. I guess not a lot of people really think about that when you're doing these like extended trips is how um being fatigued can really result in some some dangerous outcomes. So that's a really important thing you guys have to watch out for. Tell me about and I guess you kind of fortified this with the first the first trip that you that you made, but tell me about the the relationship between you two and how important that is in terms of supporting one another on these these long trips. Tim, if you want to start.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just wanted to add um like the fatigue and tiredness. So we just didn't sleep much. You know, we have to have to add as well. So we'd go to bed at just before midnight, perhaps, because we were collecting the scientific data, we're camping, we didn't have any like we literally cycled consecutively for 30 days, so there weren't any any rest days. So it's just slowly building up over time that we'd be exercising for 10 hours a day, but we might just be sleeping five hours because we will get up at five o'clock and sort of get get started for the day. So um, so that's that's a big contribution, right? Just kind of the lack of sleep. So I'm just sort of emphasizing it wasn't anything related to diet or something. It's it was literally just an incredible mismatch between what we're doing every day versus how much we're sleeping.
SPEAKER_01And and will you have to collect the same, it'll be a similar schedule where you'll also have to collect so much data at the end of the day, or will this be different?
SPEAKER_00It might be similar, but we don't have that so we don't have that pressure of cycling as much. I think we'll cycle a little bit less, let's say 120 instead of 150 kilometers, but this right across Canada was really designed around this this concept of 30 by 30, which is protecting 30% of land and water by 2030. So that's the United Nations goal. And most countries, including Canada, have subscribed to meeting this target. So once we realized we could do 30 days of cycling, and we also visited 30 protected areas and key biodiversity areas along the journey. So we didn't go in a straight line, we basically zigzagged around kind of the spine. So being the main highway, the spine, and then we're kind of zigzagging around because we're visiting and featuring those different protected areas. So it was fascinating, but it just made it more difficult. So for the long expedition, we'll have rest days, uh, probably shorter, somewhat shorter days. Ideally, we have a support vehicle where we don't have to pitch a tent, so we can just literally walk into the vehicle and lie down and sleep. So that probably saves us two hours. So that there's no way we could we could survive nine months, 30,000 kilometers on five hours of sleep. So it was a really good learning experience in so many ways. It's it's easy to sit in an office and start planning, but it's once once you're on the road, right? You realize kind of what what are the challenges and what are the obstacles. And I wanted to to also also mention you know, fire is potentially going to be a huge, yeah, a huge problem because we start in June in Alaska, so that's summer, and then we finish in Patagonia in March, nine months later. So we literally have nine months. The progression of summer, literally nine months of of heat and drought. And so fire is a big problem. But it's the same for the birds, and a lot of people or people increasingly study what does air pollution do to migratory birds. But um, yeah, I'm sort of wandering away a little bit from your question, but I just wanted to add this as kind of an additional challenge, you know, just air quality is a big one too. And we saw this across in Canada, that in some locations forest fires just kind of forced us to take a different route. And depending on where you are, this means a huge detour, or there might not be any additional routes when you're coming through BC, for example. It's kind of this main highway, but you can't really branch off left and right much because they're they're all dead ends. So that's something to kind of keep in mind as well. And yeah, in terms of relationship, absolutely critical. And I feel I feel we've taken the the right decisions to really kind of be patient with starting this expedition. So it's been been in the making for a couple of years, and and sometimes sort of felt, let's let's start this June or let's get on the bikes. But we've been we've been quite patient to really make sure the project is evolving nicely, we get the right partnerships, and and once we're taking off, we're in the best possible space. And I think this this kind of journey has allowed us to grow the relationship. We also have a film producer on board already, and he's been following us to to a trip to Patagonia to meet some scientists, to Colombia, to do lots of filming with birds and to Patagonia to film an Iron Man we did. So there's this, it's not just the two of us, but there's also the film producer, and it's it's grown into this very strong, strong bond. And you know, we're doing this with very few means. Like um, we're basically just getting by to make this happen. So I think this this has helped us also to kind of be a very strong team and support each other. Yeah, absolutely critical.
SPEAKER_01From your perspective, Leanne, I'm I'm curious because you, you know, you you you're an athlete in and of yourself, and you work with clients. And I I suspect that you have a certain way of doing things. And so I'm curious if it's what it's like to have another person that you rely on, but also are responsible for uh working with you like this.
SPEAKER_02I think Tim is the more uh strict one. Um being being nasty. I mean, one thing that it taught me was I mean, work ethic for sure, but really being adaptable in situations, you know, so often you plan, you know, I would always plan four-year cycles based around the Olympics. And, you know, when something doesn't go right or you show up to a meeting and that's supposed to be your day, and a storm blows in, or you know, you ate something funny, and all of a sudden you have to realign kind of what's what you're capable of in that moment and just be able to give your best effort. And that's one thing that I always kind of try. It's like I'll I'll give my best effort always. And it's just I don't know where I'll be, you know, at that moment in time. But with with Tim, I mean, one thing is I'm always I'm always very big on like making sure we train properly. Um, because another thing is is injury, overuse injury, making sure that we're very strong and we have a good aerobic base built. I I mean, we will get strong as we go on the bike for sure. There's bike fitness, but because it's such a repetitive motion, there is there is things we need to consider on our bodies to make sure that we're ready to to take on this, to tackle this so that we don't, you know, get get injured. And so yeah, so that that's always that's always fun, fun part. I always like putting the program together. Sometimes Tim likes to add his own exercises in, but I'm not the best student. Frustrating, no, but it but it's good. I mean, it's just another part of the relationship dynamic that we're both trying to support each other on. We both have our strengths, and then uh we're very we come from very different backgrounds too, so we can really help each other in the areas that we might need help on. Um, yeah, same with the food and eating. I mean, you just eat anything. Tim can eat an amazing amount of food. So he's not too picky, but he does like something that tastes good usually. But um, yeah, so I think we really do a great job at supporting each other through this. Like you said, it's been four years of planning and a lot of uncertainty, just with jobs, paying rents, where we're gonna live. I also have an eight-year-old daughter, so that throws another piece in the puzzle. Um, so I think just the continued kind of support and knowing that we're both doing something that's just so much bigger than an individual goal as an athlete or a medal or an accomplishment. We're really trying to create impactful change as we go. And we both very much believe that and want that. And this project's just so important that we're just we just try our best to make it make it happen as best as we can. So we we have the same mindset, I believe, on that.
SPEAKER_01Something you said earlier, Tim, was uh that's kind of stuck with me is the you consider birds, uh migratory birds, the the greatest, the world's greatest athletes. Some of them, you know, tiny little things that traverse half the planet. I'm I'm curious if you can elaborate more on the characteristics that you see in them and these birds that makes you think that and have that opinion. And then I guess to to both of you, what are some of the the lessons that you can take from them to transplant that onto how you guys are going to approach this this journey?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I have to say I don't I don't specifically study migratory birds. I've I'm more of a plant scientist. I think we just by chance looking at this flyway map, you know, I described the flyways, those migration corridors earlier. And for me, this was kind of the trigger moment of many, many triggers beforehand and many experiences. So um, so I'm learning a lot too. I I've just been I'm I'm in the process of reading this book called Bird Migration. It's 800 pages, and I'm realizing that every single species has their own kind of techniques and adaptations on how they go about migrations. And you know, it's really important to emphasize migration is not just cranes and geese. The ones we see maybe up in the sky um twice a year and making some noise that get us sort of running out of the house to see them. But about 40% of species migrate, and there's roughly 11,000 species of birds. So it's easily four to five thousand species actually migrate. And most go at night. So they don't they don't choose the day, even they're they're not they're not nocturnal animals. So they're kind of like us, but they still choose to go at night, and there's different reasons. Um one being less risk to be caught by a falcon or so. So predation is a big risk. It's a bit cooler, so it's easier for them to travel. And um, but then again, if you're looking at the different species, it's it's an incredible diversity. So one of one of the ways they can actually manage those huge expeditions, those huge journeys is they can kind of change their their internal systems based on the stage of the migration. So say they're up in Alaska, they're breeding grounds, so they're looking after their offspring. They're just trying to get as much food as possible into their system. So they're growing, they can they can potentially double their weight. And we can do that too, but we're not going to be the best migrants if we're doubling our weight. So they but they can do this and then suddenly be ready to take on this 15,000 kilometer flight. And in that process, they can then start to shrink kind of their intestines, but they can grow their respiratory system because now they're not they're maybe not going to eat for a week or so. They're just they're just in the process of flying, so they can they can grow their respiratory system and really focus on endurance and getting enough oxygen in the system. So incredible adaptations that are obviously way beyond what we're capable of. And and to give this this famous example of uh the species called a bar-tailed godwit, they breed in Alaska and then they make a crossing of the Pacific and they come out somewhere in Tasmania, New Zealand. So it's literally flying the entire length of the Pacific. That's about, I think the longest migration was just over 13,000 kilometers. And they do this non-stop. And you know, that's it's so, as I said earlier, it's so abstract, it's almost beyond something we can imagine because for most humans, the lifetime goal is maybe gonna be a marathon. That's kind of maybe a shared goal among many people, once in a lifetime at least, complete a marathon. And for so for those maybe a little bit more ambitious, it's gonna be an Iron Man. But we're talking about 42 kilometers of running, three to five hours, not sure, um, roughly. But those birds, they do my journeys, which are absolutely, absolutely mind-boggling. You know, I feel I feel that that always strikes me. And then there's that whole component of so this one bird which they tracked, so they had a little monitor on the bird, which was then giving signals. So it's starting in Alaska, and then they find that same bird in Tasmania. And that was actually a juvenile. So this particular bird had never had never left his or her nest in Alaska, and then has the incredible courage to go on to embark on this journey into the complete unknown. And you know, I've been I've been trying to find kind of an analogue for a human. I don't know what it's gonna be, but it's it's sort of this idea maybe someone born in a little township close to Toronto and has a radius of five kilometers for the first 18 years. It's partly partly because birds are kind of mature by the time, almost by the time they're born, right? Whereas for humans, it just takes a little bit longer. But let's let's assume that that one person is growing up in this little township for 18 years and has a radius of five kilometers, and there's no internet, there's no TV. So there's there's literally no understanding of the world around this little township, and then at by the age of 18 decides to, I'm going now to run to Santiago de Chile, not knowing where Santiago is because there's no understanding, but it's literally crossing the entire Americas completely with complete uncertainty. I find that extraordinary, you know, just that that courage to jump into the unknown and then do a journey that's beyond anything we could ever imagine.
SPEAKER_01In some of the preparation or research that that you guys have been doing looking into this, especially with the migratory birds, was there were there any characteristics from an athletic perspective, I suppose, that really stuck out to you that you you hope you can utilize in your journey?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, like Tim said, they just what they're capable is just unreal. The the comparison, the one thing is the the the birds a lot of the times they they make these long treks, but they they have stopover sites where maybe they'll spend a few days where if we want any chance at kind of reuniting with them in Patagonia, we we can't have too many stops. So I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, I'm not, I think I was looking at their flight speeds or some some duration. I was like, oh, well, they they go really hard and then they get a rest for a little bit, and they go really hard and then they get a rest for a little bit. So kind of we we we can't rest for days because we we don't have days for this project. Um we have to try to make it in nine months. So I kind of found that a little bit interesting for sure. I mean, they just it's just again, like Tim said, incredible what they do. I can't grow my respiratory system on the goal like that. We have to prepare beforehand as much as possible and not gain double our body weight. Well, we'll definitely have um you kind of would do want to go into these events with added weights, but still it has to be able to cycle. So that's one thing we did do on the cross Canada as well is I put together a very solid strength training program and made sure that we were just see like even just five pounds heavier, just knowing that we might be in a calorie deficit. So we yeah, we did that training beforehand. So it'll be very similar this year. So not quite as big as what the birds are doing, but it will be, you know, getting our our lean mass up as much as we can, having those fat reserves a little bit so that we are ready to go. So I guess that's kind of similar to the birds, but not quite as efficient. The birds are way more efficient than we are, and then on the go, you know, we we just have small stops. Um and then the other thing about the stopovers, too, that's another concern. I mean, these birds migrate and a lot of times they come back to the same location and the the site is gone, or there's a building there, and then all of a sudden they're hungry and tired, and now we're doing where do they go? And I think we'll probably run into similar problems where we might think you know, we have a rest stop up ahead and there's a fire or some extreme weather, or anything could be that's one thing. Here I felt really bad about uh we're in Edmonton, Horlac Park has been. I mean, there's lots of burrows, but you always see the geese there, and it's been shut for the last three years, maybe. And the first year they came back, I thought I was like, where did all those geese go? Because they would have come back to the same spot and realized that they don't have their resting or they don't have their spot anymore. So so definitely some comparisons, but they, as Tim says, dwarf us in so many ways. But I'm excited to also collect the data and look at the physiology behind the birds that we that we'll be following and then compare that to our our own uh data that we'll receive on our physiology, physiology. I think that's just gonna be fun for people to a hook for people to learn more about the birds and reconnect with that nature component. I'm I'm excited about that part.
SPEAKER_00And it's also kind of this humbling experience. Like so what's so we create so we work with scientists so we can actually compare our scientific data to data that's been collected on birds. And again, it's it's it's so different, but it's also but it's still a very interesting opportunity to to tell stories and for people to really um be humbled a little bit about what these birds are capable of. And as I said earlier, that's kind of our our vision and motivation, this this rediscovery of and we call it rewilding minds and hearts, so rediscovering where where we belong in this in this huge biosphere and and web of life.
SPEAKER_02I I think the only thing that maybe we might be able to bird beat the birds on is we might be able to hit a faster speed on our bike than the birds can fly if we're going down a hill. We might be able if we can clock our top speed, then maybe, but I don't know. I don't know what other data we might be able to and it depends how willing pushing it. Yeah, it depends how willing you're you want to go on a downhill.
SPEAKER_01It is extraordinary what what you two are doing and and very timely. Uh you you brought up a couple of times, but um, you know, the things like the wildfires are are growing. We we see more and more of those. The the air pollution, global biodiversity loss, habitat loss, like you mentioned at the park, these things are on a precipice. So it is extremely important to to showcase and and bring a light to these things that like you guys are now. As I wrap things up, I want to ask you guys one more question. Again, what you're doing is an extraordinary undertaking. You're really pushing yourselves to the limit, just like what these birds do. But if there's somebody who's been inspired by our conversation today and would like to make a change for the better, whether it's uh in the in the dietary realm or the athletic realm or uh environmental, I'm curious if you guys have any anything to say or any tips or anything like that for somebody who might be looking to make a change, even if small.
SPEAKER_00I'd say um, and you mentioned this, I think the dietary change is by far on an individual level, it's by far the biggest impact we can have. And and there's different reasons for it. I think the the most compelling one is if we look at these interconnected crises that we're facing, you've mentioned it, biodiversity, pollution, climate. They're all essentially rooted in the same, in the same disconnect that we that we do have to nature. So they are they seem to be different, different problems, but but the root cause is the same. And I think when it comes to diet, the beauty is we can address those challenges simultaneously. So oftentimes I struggle with work at a university and there's so much emphasis on on technology. Let's use different different uh technologies to draw down CO2. So from the atmosphere, greenhouse gas. Let's try and get this somewhere into the ground. But it's overlooking that it's it's this is just really looking at CO2, but it's not looking at biodiversity laws, at pollution, potentially at methane. So all these other problems. The beauty with diet is we can address them simultaneously. And that's partly because animal agriculture does have the single biggest impact on land use, right? So most of the land that is being lost is for animal agriculture. So there's this wonderful opportunity if everyone shifted to a plant-based diet, especially in kind of the societies we live in. I'm not talking about indigenous peoples or nomadic tribes in Africa, but really those people who have the biggest impact, be it in North America, in Europe. If we were all to shift to a plant-based diet, we could suddenly read wild places. You know, we could just leave it to nature. We wouldn't have to use it as humans. So that kind of takes me to this point of nature-based solutions. Nature just being in a way, we just have to leave it to nature. We don't have to come up with something human, human thought of. We um we increase biodiversity. And we know that biodiversity is high biodiversity is the stability for ecosystems and basically the kind of the backbone for us as humans to be healthy. And um and then we we reduce pollution, right? Animal agriculture just has has huge impacts on on polluting rivers, which then trickles down into oceans and algal blooms and uh and all those problems, and and climate as well. So if we have more nature, more CO2 is being naturally drawn into ecosystems. So I feel it's by far the biggest. And and then there's where do we put our money, right? It's investment, it's it's overconsumption. Like, are there ways that we don't buy that much for for Christmas and for these events? But can we maybe use that money to to give to NGOs that are protecting the environment? You know, just that that whole philosophy of that whole problem of overconsumption. Like, are there ways that we can really live a little bit more minimalistic? Do we need all these things? So I think those are the interesting part is those are I think at an individual level the biggest impacts we can have. But they're not necessarily the ones that are communicated widely. You know, people are still believing that recycling is going to make all the difference. And it's I'm not saying it's not important, it is, but it's it's there's no way this is going to solve just uh the scale of the problems we're facing are just so much greater than recycling. But it's often, you know, those problems are tied to lobby animal agriculture, huge lobbies, just like oil and gas when it comes to reducing emissions. So I think that's that's the challenge we're facing. And that brings me to that point of storytelling. I think for people who are plant-based already telling stories is really important. It's not so much imposing something on people, but using creative ways to to really nudge people to make changes. I think that's that's super important. And that's in a lot of ways what we're trying telling stories, inviting people into this journey, into wings of survival, and seeing what we're doing, enjoying this because people people love challenging human undertakings, but at the same time getting getting this uh this new perspective into nature and maybe yeah, kind of revisiting the choices that we make as as human individuals.
SPEAKER_01Liana, do you want to add anything?
SPEAKER_02Uh just I guess maybe a different way to think about creating change or making change. If you're someone that's kind of wants to make the change, I I always ask, like, what are you afraid of? Because if you continue to do what you're doing, we know the outcome and it doesn't look great. But if you encourage yourself to take that step forward and say, as Tim said, go vegan or even eat more plant-based, look at where you're putting your money to do something, the outcome's only gonna feel good. And it's bringing positivity, positivity to your own life as well as the world around you. And that's if each individual could just do that, we're looking after each other and we're looking after nature and the planet. And I really believe that you know, we would just be better human beings. So I always ask, you know, when people are like, I'm afraid, it's like, well, what are you afraid of? Because even if you fail, I mean, even if you say you're vegan and then you have a piece of toast with jam in it, or like, or it has butter in it, you know, it's not the end of the world. Just as long as you're consistent and you keep showing up and you keep trying to be that positive change day to day, it'll start to come through and it'll start to, you know, come through in your circles. So really it's people are afraid of kind of there, there's this fear around change. Like one thing I think we get is oh, being vegan is so expensive, I can't afford that. You're kind of like you can afford some beans. I think actually the cost of meat has gone up substantially. The great thing about Canada and I think in the US as well, not sure about Europe, but the cost of vegan products, because we have more variety now, they're starting to come down. They're they are more reasonable to have some of those fun products. But there's so many ways of of getting great food in that's very cheap. And I know there's and you probably have them, there is I saw a study fly by on LinkedIn, the cost and being vegan was was the cheapest food option on this study. And I I'd have to look at it. I don't know if you have it, but I I took a brief look at it, and for me, it wasn't the number one way to eat by any means.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I think I think that's a that's a great point. Tim kind of alluded to all these systems, and they can be overwhelming to uh an individual to want to make these changes, but then again, to your point, Liana, it's one of the smallest but most impactful things you can do is to, I mean, you're gonna eat three times a day, generally, right? So that is one thing that you can shift that's not some massive change or overwhelming. It's it's easy enough to, like you said, there's variety now uh of things that you can purchase. And if you don't want to get the meat alternatives, plenty of of beans and and things like that that you can that you can get. I think that's that's a good way of of thinking about it. Um Tim, Liana, it's been great. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Good luck on your journey, and thank you so much for joining the Plant Based Canada podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, and thanks to everyone for listening.
SPEAKER_01This podcast featured music from freesounds.org. A very special thanks to our guests for speaking with us and sharing their insight, and of course, thank you for listening. The Plant Based Canada Podcast is an initiative of the group Plant Based Canada, which aims to educate the public and health professionals on the evidence-based benefits of plant-based whole food nutrition for individual and planetary health. To learn more about the show, visit our website www.plantbasedcanada.org, and stay up to date by following us on Instagram and Facebook. You can also check out Plant Based Canada's YouTube channel, and don't forget to subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you download your podcasts.